Trust in a Divided World: Finding Hope Beyond the Noise
This podcast delves into the complexities of trust, change, and the impact of racism within institutions, particularly focusing on Berman University. The discussion highlights how societal changes, including the COVID-19 pandemic, have influenced relationships and perceptions within communities, emphasizing that love and unity should prevail despite divisions. The speakers share personal experiences of loss and resilience, illustrating how these challenges have shaped their perspectives on faith and leadership. A central theme emerges around the importance of understanding God's character and how that influences our interactions with one another. Through heartfelt conversation, the episode underscores the necessity of fostering trust and compassion in a world increasingly marked by division and uncertainty.
Takeaways:
- People like change, but they often resist being changed by external forces.
- Racism is defined as prejudice plus power, and its manifestations can vary widely.
- The importance of unity in the church during divisive times, especially during COVID-19.
- Trust in institutions has eroded, leading to a societal increase in fear and skepticism.
- Personal experiences with loss can shape our perspectives and deepen our faith in God.
- Leadership should be viewed as serving others rather than rising to power.
A detailed examination of the ongoing challenges associated with racism and institutional dynamics serves as the backdrop for a rich dialogue between the speakers, who navigate their personal and professional experiences in academia. The conversation begins with a critical analysis of how racism manifests within educational institutions, specifically at Berman University, and the difficulties faced by individuals who work within these environments. Speaker A’s perspective is grounded in a nuanced understanding of racism as a complex interplay of prejudice and power, suggesting that effective change requires a foundational commitment to love and acceptance in all interactions.
As the discussion unfolds, the speakers reflect on their own experiences with change, both technological and personal, and how these experiences shape their understanding of community dynamics. The conversation highlights the impact of COVID-19 on church communities, where divisions emerged rather than the expected unity. Speaker B articulates a deep concern regarding the erosion of trust within society, particularly in the context of the pandemic, and how this has led to a culture of suspicion and division. The speakers emphasize the importance of fostering a culture of love and understanding, as rooted in Christian teachings, as a counter-narrative to the prevailing societal tensions.
The dialogue also addresses the broader implications of leadership within educational institutions, with Speaker A sharing insights from his doctoral studies on change management and the necessity of adopting a service-oriented approach to leadership. By prioritizing the needs of faculty, staff, and students, leaders can create an environment conducive to growth and collaboration. The episode concludes with a profound reflection on the importance of love as a transformative force in addressing racism, promoting unity, and building supportive communities, inviting listeners to consider how they can embody these principles in their daily lives and interactions.
Transcript
When you make a change with technology, what are some of the factors that make people want to adopt it?
Speaker A:You know, because people, people like change, they just don't like to be changed.
Speaker B:What is the impact of racism within an institution like Berman university?
Speaker B:Have you personally experienced any of those?
Speaker A:That's quite a shift.
Speaker B:I know it's quite a shift.
Speaker B:I'm going somewhere with it.
Speaker A:Racism is real.
Speaker A:I learned how to work with people of all races and connect well without feeling separation.
Speaker A:Racism is prejudice plus power kingdom.
Speaker A:They all undermine each other.
Speaker A:They all are fighting each other for supremacy and that kind of system, it reminds me of the United States.
Speaker A:They came out of rebellion.
Speaker A:They had a revolution to come out of the empire.
Speaker A:And ever since then they have been having civil wars.
Speaker A:They have had division.
Speaker A:Any kingdom that's built on division has seeds of division in it.
Speaker A:Whatever the seeds are of an organization that will always perpetuate itself in the DNA of the people there.
Speaker A:They will know you are my disciples by your love.
Speaker B:I was going to come straight to the point.
Speaker B:What is the thing that the world looks at to know that we're followers of Christ, right.
Speaker B:It's not the fact that we keep the Sabbath, it's not the fact that we preach the good sermons.
Speaker B:It's how we treat each other.
Speaker B:By this, all men will know you're my disciple when you have love one for another.
Speaker B:So it was really surprising to see the division even amongst our church because of COVID there was total division in the place that we should have shown the most unity.
Speaker B:Let the world be divided, but let us show unity in Christ and love for each other, regardless of what the other person may think.
Speaker A:Just digging into that word and understanding how it reflects God's character.
Speaker A:The love that gives you everything when you deserve nothing, the love that when you're the Son coming back from wasting the Father's inheritance, will give the robe and the ring.
Speaker A:My devotional theme is understanding who God is because his character is essentially what's the most important thing at stake, that people who run from God run from him because they don't understand who he is.
Speaker A:If you don't have that center of who God is and how his love is for us and how it's to flow through us, then what really do we have to offer except some empty doctrines that correctly understood point to Jesus, but without him can be a trap for people.
Speaker A:You cannot trust any authority, therefore you can't trust God.
Speaker A:The greatest authority.
Speaker A:Internet, dad.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker B:Okay, so we're live.
Speaker B:Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:How you doing today?
Speaker A:I am well, it's been a very busy week, and it continues to be busy, and I'm glad I could take a few minutes out of my very busy day to spend.
Speaker B:Well, I appreciate that because I know it's where Hindus semester is getting close to exam time, and so you're super busy, so I appreciate you taking the time out.
Speaker A:Grams are the piece of my worry right now.
Speaker A:It's the academic calendar.
Speaker A:We just got the schedule live yesterday, and now it's getting the academic calendar.
Speaker A:All of the changes that have happened to programs and degrees and policies and even a little thing like changing the sequence of whether a course is offered in the winter or in the fall makes a change to the calendar, makes a change to the back end in our cams software.
Speaker A:And so a lot of things have to happen.
Speaker A:And you want to get this out of the way before graduation, because after graduation, it's the conferral work and.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker A:Whoa.
Speaker B:A lot of stuff going on there says, do you have to, how long do you plan your academic calendars?
Speaker B:Like, do you go for three years, four years?
Speaker B:Cause I was looking at the calendar yesterday because, as you know, it's advised advisory week as well.
Speaker B:So we're looking at the calendar.
Speaker B: I think it went up to: Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The April.
Speaker A:When you're talking about the calendar, if.
Speaker B:You'Re talking about academic calendar, academic calendar.
Speaker A:Because the dates we have, as of this year, we have planned two years ahead.
Speaker A:So we approved at the faculty council the academic dates for next year and for the year after that.
Speaker A:And so I can say in one of the years coming up, you're going to get three weeks at Christmas time rather than two.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:You may or may not be a student by then, but that's something that, based on the way that things ended and, you know, wanting to make sure that our advisors had enough time between the exams ending and the next semester starting to check and see, you know, did this student get a good enough grade to take the next half of their course load?
Speaker A:So that'll be interesting.
Speaker A:But the actual academic calendar, the book itself, that is planned from one year to the next.
Speaker A:So this year we'll look at introducing a new course or needing to make a change to how off campus study happens.
Speaker A:And based on the decisions that are made this year ending about march is the deadline.
Speaker A:Once the beginning of march comes, no more changes.
Speaker A:And then we have to create the document.
Speaker B:Do you ever say in, obviously, you, the registrar so we don't talk about that a little bit.
Speaker B:But do you have a say in what courses are mandatory in terms of, like, say, the religious department?
Speaker A:I have no say whatsoever.
Speaker B:No say.
Speaker A:My job is.
Speaker B:Explain your job as a registrar.
Speaker A:Okay, sure.
Speaker A: of: Speaker A:So this is just coming to the near the end of the first year.
Speaker A:And as they say in business, a lot of my previous background is, in business, you are new, or a product is new for a year, and after that, you can't call it new anymore.
Speaker A:So I'm new for a year, and I can use that as an excuse for all the mistakes that I've been making.
Speaker A:And after a year, then I can't say I'm new anymore.
Speaker A:So the registrar is responsible for essentially the engine of the academic machine.
Speaker A:So academic administration makes the decisions, but the registrar is responsible for implementing a lot of the things that happen.
Speaker A:So my office is responsible for managing registration, for producing the schedule.
Speaker A:Now, the faculty and the administrative assistants, the advisors, they will have a lot to do with the actual deciding what will happen where and making sure that there aren't conflicts between courses, that students need to finish their courses in a timely fashion, and setting up the times, the schedules for the instructors, so that everybody has balance in their days and balance in their lives.
Speaker A:And then all of that information comes to my office, and we have to enter it into our cams, our course management system, so that the students and the faculty can see the schedule, can choose things and working with it to make sure that everything works well on the back end.
Speaker A:So that's the registration part.
Speaker A:We're also responsible for all of the records, so keeping track of all the transcripts as they come in, keeping track of any external credit that happens, making sure that when your grades are submitted by your professor, that they're put into the right place, and if changes need to happen, that that's all documented and all of this so that when I, in a short month or so, I will have my first opportunity to stand on the stage and hand the president an empty cover.
Speaker A:Well, it's not empty.
Speaker A:It has some nice things inside written down, but it doesn't have a degree in it to say, this student, we recommend that they graduate.
Speaker A:And so that's the culmination of the work of the registrar's office.
Speaker A:There's other things that happen there.
Speaker A:And because before I was registrar, I was also responsible for institutional research.
Speaker A:All of the statistics that come out of Berman come through my office as well.
Speaker A:So all of the surveys that happen here and all of the government reporting also has to come through my office.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of things.
Speaker A:I just finished yesterday resubmitting a transfer credit report.
Speaker A:They keep track of all the transfer credit that happens at all the 26 institutions in the province.
Speaker A:And so we had to, they had some issues on the government side and so I had to download again and upload again to their portal and resubmit so that they can keep track of the trends that are happening between schools in the province, how many courses are being transferred?
Speaker A:Because the government is interested in helping students to finish their degrees and to know that there are pathways to mobility between institutions.
Speaker A:That's something that's important to them.
Speaker B:So good.
Speaker B:So you see that the government has a lot to say in the terms of how credits are transferred.
Speaker A:The government does not determine transfer.
Speaker A:We decide.
Speaker A:And for instance, if you were to go to the University of Alberta and you were to take a course and you were to come here and say, I would like to transfer my course from a University of Alberta to here, then our professors would look at that syllabus and say, yeah, it's about 80% of what our similar course is.
Speaker A:So we will allow that to transfer in.
Speaker A:Or they may say, you know, we don't teach anything that's like that and so we'll just allow that to come in as an elective.
Speaker A:So each institution has autonomy as to what is transferred, but the government has an interest in the system and in having a system that's workable so that you as a student, if you were to decide to, you know what, I enjoyed my time here, but I think I want to study engineering and so I want to go to, you know, University of Calgary and take engineering.
Speaker A:We're interested in knowing that you will not lose all the time that you spent here and all the money that you spent here and that there's an ability for students to have that kind of flexibility.
Speaker A:They're interested in us working well together to create a system rather than just a group of independent schools that just all do their own things their own way.
Speaker B:Okay, that's interesting.
Speaker B:So now you work as a registrar.
Speaker B:You've been here in that position for less than a year now.
Speaker B:But before that you were lecturing.
Speaker A:Actually, before that I was responsible for developing programs and also the institutional research piece.
Speaker A:So what happened here in Alberta?
Speaker A:The government said, well, the government, the government sets out what they call roles and mandates.
Speaker A:They have a framework that says that this school can do this and this school can do that.
Speaker A:That's why, for instance, Burman was a university college, and then it became a university because the government said that university colleges were limited in certain ways and they decided to free up things.
Speaker A:So they said that, for instance, colleges or polytechnics could offer degrees instead of just offering, you know, diplomas programs.
Speaker A:And we would allow universities to offer certificates and diplomas if they wanted to.
Speaker A:And so with that opportunity, Berman said, well, hey, not everybody wants to, especially in this day and age, invest four years in a program.
Speaker A:We're very fortunate that we have three year programs that other institutions don't.
Speaker A:We kind of inherited that from the United States when we were affiliated with union College.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:But now someone could come here and do a one year diploma in business or one year certificate in business.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:High school diploma.
Speaker B:And that's brand new.
Speaker A:That's brand new for this year.
Speaker A:So I helped business with the implementation and the development of those and submitting the government that programs.
Speaker A:We have a nursing, we have a relationship with Kettering college that allows states in the states, which allows students to do a year and a half here and then go directly into the nursing program as long as they have a sufficient GPA.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so my work was to take those courses and to combine or to, I guess, to solidify them as a program.
Speaker A:So a student now will graduate from Berman with a health sciences certificate, rather than just taking some courses and leaving here, never graduating as a Birmingham graduate, never becoming alumni, and just going on Decaturing.
Speaker A:And that's what they did.
Speaker A:We also created two.
Speaker A:Well, we have the early learning and childcare program, which I saw those.
Speaker A:It's online now.
Speaker A:And that's very.
Speaker B:That's interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I have been looking into that for my wife.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it's a good program to take, especially if you're a stay home mom and stuff like that.
Speaker B:And especially if you want, you know, I'm gonna hint to homeschooling.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, because I'm kind of scared of the world right now.
Speaker A:Well, the world is a very scary place.
Speaker B:It is, it is.
Speaker A:God tells us that we don't have to fear.
Speaker A:One of the big things that I can find all through the Bible.
Speaker A:Fear not.
Speaker A:Fear not.
Speaker A:Fear not.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, so, so you did that before you became the registrar.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And before that?
Speaker B:Before that.
Speaker A:And I think it was a blessing.
Speaker A:We were talking just before we went live about COVID and how just when Covid hit and everybody had to teach online, which is very time intensive, I switched into the role of working working with program development and institutional research, which meant that I didn't have to be teaching full time.
Speaker A:And I think the timing of that was, was a blessing.
Speaker A:So before that, I taught here for about 15 years in the school of business, teaching the softer side of business.
Speaker A:So I taught the economics.
Speaker A:Actually, no, you know what?
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:I taught economics in Trinidad previously.
Speaker A:Doctor Michelle taught the economics.
Speaker A:I taught the introduction to business, the computer related business and the people related business, the human resources and the organizational behavior and those kinds of courses.
Speaker A:And I really enjoyed those and still do because it's a, you know, understanding people and how they work has always been more interesting to me than the just dealing with numbers and dealing with finance.
Speaker A:And those are all important parts of business.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:But I like the human side.
Speaker B:The human side.
Speaker B:You like the human side of it.
Speaker B:So what made you get into that in the first place?
Speaker A:Well, I think it all started back when I was in university.
Speaker A:My undergrad was at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario.
Speaker B:Yeah, if you carried me with that one.
Speaker A:Not on camera.
Speaker B:Not on camera, but that's good.
Speaker A:And I was a teaching assistant there.
Speaker A:And at Laurier, in most big universities, you have a teacher who will lecture, and then you have tas who manage a lot of things.
Speaker A:And so for us, the TA taught the labs, so we actually got to teach the content and we graded all of the exams for the students.
Speaker A:And essentially we did all the work and the teacher just talked for a little while and got all the money.
Speaker A:But it was in that process that I learned that I really enjoyed teaching.
Speaker A:And so when I was finished, I did that for two years.
Speaker A:Being a TA.
Speaker A:In my third and fourth year of my bachelor of business degree, an opportunity came to go to Trinidad.
Speaker A:My father had some connections with the people down there, and a new president had come in.
Speaker A:Doctor Lashley had a vision of how to attract quality instructors to the school, which was, we will pay for their master's degree and they will give us a certain number of years of service.
Speaker B:Yeah, kind of like what a conference does with pastors.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I don't know how it works with pastors.
Speaker A:They pay for their M div.
Speaker B:Yes, they pay for the M div, and they come into, I think, five years with Alberta.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But different conferences have different time.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:So you shop around and decide, you know, how much of my life do I want to sell?
Speaker A:Is this like a.
Speaker A:Kind of a slavery, human trafficking?
Speaker B:I'm wondering, you know, like, you see you still here, soul, for five years, and you can't contract, you know, Michael Jackson.
Speaker A:I've connected to Sony.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Get out of that contract.
Speaker A:I'm not going to do any more music.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyhow.
Speaker B:But that's interesting that he, the president of that university did that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So he said, okay, we'll get some young people, we'll pay for their master's degree, they teach for us, they, they get, will provide their home for them, so we don't have to pay out a lot for, you know, professors are expensive, so you pay for the education, you get the, you get the quality.
Speaker A:And so I got, you know, out of it lots more experience teaching again.
Speaker A:Teaching.
Speaker A:I taught economics, I taught the human side because they had accounting and finance people.
Speaker A:And so then from there, after I was there for about four and a half years, I came back up to Toronto area, back to Guelph, which is where I grew up.
Speaker A:But then I got employed at Crawford Adventist Academy, which is the adventist school in Toronto, the high school of Toronto.
Speaker A:And I taught business there.
Speaker A:And in Ontario, the business curriculum is similar to like the first year of university here in Alberta.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like you get to take serious accounting and serious human resources and it's really good curriculum.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's actually good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:At that level.
Speaker A:At that level.
Speaker A:At the high school level.
Speaker A:And so I came out, in fact, I noted that the same textbook that we used there in high school was the same textbook used out here at Berman.
Speaker A:But after about five years at Crawford, there was a situation that really kind of propelled me out of there.
Speaker A:I was teaching, I taught upstairs above the gym.
Speaker A:And end of the day came.
Speaker A:I left my laptop sitting on top of two monitors and I went downstairs to the lobby for something, and I came back up and my laptop was gone.
Speaker B:Whoa.
Speaker A:And I've never seen it again to this day.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker A:And there were suggestions about who may have taken it.
Speaker A:And I won't name the person now because no point in that.
Speaker A:But at that moment, I mean, there's a certain, I think we'll call it trust that you have with, with a place, with students, with, you know, that, you know, I'm good to you and you're good to me.
Speaker A:And it's like, just got broken right there.
Speaker A:It's like, you know, I.
Speaker A:I would drive in every day and I would just be crying listening to the song by.
Speaker A:I don't know if you know, Wintley Phipps song.
Speaker A:No need to fear.
Speaker B:No need to fear.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:For he will never fail you and in the morning you'll see his face.
Speaker A:And that was just my salvation.
Speaker A:Cause, like, I didn't want to go to work.
Speaker A:I didn't want to be there.
Speaker A:And so the very next year, betrayal.
Speaker A:I was here at Berman University, teaching in the school of business.
Speaker B:So did you start, did you intentionally start looking for places to go outside of class?
Speaker A:No, I think the opportunity just came.
Speaker B:How did an opening, how did it happen?
Speaker A:Call it a miracle.
Speaker A:God said, this is where I want you next, and this is what it might take to get you out of there.
Speaker A:And so in that year, I got married that year.
Speaker A:I got a new job that year.
Speaker A:I moved across the country that year, which I don't know if, you know, if you've ever taken, you know, stress, there's the stressors.
Speaker A:Those are all major stresses that all happen at once.
Speaker A:All good stresses, but, you know, there's new stress and distress, but they're all stressed.
Speaker A:And so survived all three things at once.
Speaker A:Yeah, but came out here and been here since then, and it's, it's good.
Speaker B:I can sympathize with that because I was working with a certain institution where I got betrayed and, yeah, the trust, and it wasn't, it was a place that I loved, and I grew a lot there.
Speaker B:That's one thing I like about it, is I grew a lot in terms of my professionalism, in terms of management skills, in terms of all those stuff that you need to attain a certain level of competence within that field.
Speaker B:And, you know, when you work in a place, you meet people and you, you know, you form relationship with them, and there is certain communication between you and those people that you form that relationship with that, you know, there's a level of trust between us.
Speaker B:There's a level of understanding between us, there's a level of relationship, and, you know, kind of.
Speaker B:Kind of like your experience, it wasn't stealing, but that trust was betrayed in a way where it's.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I just didn't want to be in that environment anymore.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I struggled, you know, like, I literally started having, like, depression and, like, anxiety and stress just because of the level of betrayal that I experienced within that specific place.
Speaker B:And the conclusion for me was that I had to go like, like I was still trying to fight it.
Speaker B:I wanted to be there.
Speaker B:I felt like there could be room for improvement and forgiveness.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, I'm like, I had to do one.
Speaker B:What's best for me.
Speaker B:And that was just to pull out of this environment because I realized that it wasn't what I thought it was, you know, people.
Speaker B:The frailty of human nature surprises you, and you see that people are benevolent and they could do dangerous things.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:It reminds me, one of the concepts of organizational behavior is inner kill, where you're in an environment and it's.
Speaker A:Is just killing you to be there.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:The best thing to do is to be somewhere else.
Speaker B:Where did it get that phrase from?
Speaker A:I don't know where it came from.
Speaker A:I like it, but you can google it after we're done.
Speaker B:I don't actually like it because that's thing.
Speaker B:It's like my wife would probably compare it to an abusive relationship.
Speaker B:You're in it, but you don't want to be in it.
Speaker A:And you can't leave because the risk of leaving is greater to you, at least, your perception, than the risk of staying.
Speaker B:Than the risk of staying, you know?
Speaker B:So you kind of endure the fact that you were around people, but you don't know if you can trust them because the level of betrayal for you.
Speaker A:Was so high, or, you know, you can't trust them.
Speaker B:You know, you can't trust them.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:You know, you're in a place where you're, you know, you're caught between two opinions and you say, you know, okay, you gotta pay the bills still.
Speaker B:You gotta live still.
Speaker B:And this is the way you've known for living for the past five, six, seven years.
Speaker B:I know you're gonna have to break ties with that.
Speaker B:It was hard, but just like you said.
Speaker B:Said with the laptop was what happened was God showing me that I needed to be somewhere else because the circumstances of what happened there would have pulled me away from what I'm doing now.
Speaker B:So, like, this podcast, like, my path to being a minister and all those kind of things, and it was clear to me that sometimes, you know, God don't allow people to, you know, you know, people are just narcissistic if they want to be narcissistic and malevolent and evil, and they do those things out of their own, the evilness of their heart.
Speaker B:But God can use those circumstances, like he did with a laptop, to propel you into the place that he needs to be.
Speaker B:And that's what I learned from that situation.
Speaker B:So the laptop situation really pushed you from where you were so you could be at Birmingham.
Speaker B:And in that process, you end up getting married.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I was getting married before the laptop was stolen, but.
Speaker B:Yeah, but, you know, but it all happened.
Speaker A:So then I came out here and Doctor Luxton was the president here at the time?
Speaker A:I don't know if you know.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker A:She went on to become the president of Andrews and just retired not long ago, and now does some work with the Adventist, the group of all the presidents of the adventist university.
Speaker A:Andrea Luxon.
Speaker A:Great, a great leader.
Speaker A:But she, she, I guess, saw in me some seeds of something worth investing in and so worked out so that I could go to Andrews and do my PhD in leadership while continuing to work at Berman, which, if you ever consider a PhD, the leadership PhD, at least at that time, it has coursework, it has a portfolio that you have to combine artifacts of your leadership in a whole group of different areas at different levels of quality, and then you have to write a dissertation too, and you have to be fully employed at the time.
Speaker A:If you lose your job, you have to pause the program.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Oh, so it's conditionally on the job that you were doing at the time when you came early.
Speaker B:That was that, the lecturing.
Speaker A:When I came in business, I was.
Speaker A:I was assistant, I guess.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess assistant president.
Speaker A:I was assistant professor of business.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And then when I started the PhD, I became also assistant to the president.
Speaker A:So I then sat on cabinet with the vps and went on retreats with them and, and responsible for helping to develop policies.
Speaker A:And I was the Berman, I guess, the liaison planner for the first ministerial convention when we brought all the ministers in, and then also helped with the second one.
Speaker A:That happened not long ago.
Speaker B:I see.
Speaker A:And so I was doing things, and then after that, I became chair of the school of business while also continuing to teach.
Speaker A:And so while doing that, I'm doing the doctoral studies, building the portfolio, and not no longer taking care of myself because you don't have time.
Speaker A:It's just work early, up early, up late, not exercising anymore.
Speaker A:And so I got diabetes from that experience.
Speaker B:What level?
Speaker B:Type one.
Speaker A:Type two.
Speaker B:Type two.
Speaker A:Type two.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I went into hospital because my blood sugar was somewhere in the twenties, my wife, and it was, yeah, not cool.
Speaker B:I sighed because my wife actually is kind of like, struggling with that right now, which, like, we were about to have her baby, actually, tomorrow.
Speaker B:This is interesting.
Speaker B:I'm actually going to.
Speaker A:Congratulations.
Speaker B:Tomorrow is a C section.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How many do you have?
Speaker A:Two C sections.
Speaker B:Two C sections.
Speaker A:But obviously, yes, two as well.
Speaker B:This is gonna be the second one for her, but, yeah, but you see, you got type two diabetes because of your lack of inactivity, my extreme commitment.
Speaker A:To the program, and lack of commitment to myself.
Speaker A:And so, I mean, since then, I have changed my lifestyle and completely gotten rid of the diabetes.
Speaker A:I don't have to even poke my finger to, you know, to check anything.
Speaker A:My doctor is very happy because I think most people with diabetes don't, are not willing to change their lifestyle.
Speaker A:They're just willing to take medication and then eat the same thing.
Speaker A:But it was.
Speaker A:My wife gave me this green moringa stuff and I started walking.
Speaker A:12,000 steps a day, which I still do to this day every day, except maybe I missed one somewhere where I.
Speaker B:Was commitment 101 right there.
Speaker A:Well, you know, it's.
Speaker B:How long have you been doing that?
Speaker A:Uh, maybe eight years.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Never missed a day.
Speaker A:Maybe one day.
Speaker B:Maybe one day.
Speaker A: nk I was so sick, it was like: Speaker A:It's like, I can't.
Speaker A:I can't do this.
Speaker A:You know, I had Covid and I walked in my little room and, you know, 12,000 steps and then.
Speaker A:No more juice.
Speaker A:I just drink water.
Speaker A:I would drink a little carrot juice, but no, no more juice.
Speaker A:No more.
Speaker A:No more.
Speaker B:Why no more juice?
Speaker A:Because juice is full of sugar.
Speaker B:It's like just pure sugar and that.
Speaker B:How does the sugar affect your diabetes?
Speaker A:If you take sugar, you will get high blood sugar.
Speaker A:So I changed my lifestyle, changed my exercise, and so I no longer am diabetic.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker A:That's a miracle.
Speaker B:That's amazing.
Speaker A:I'm blessed.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:But got through the doctor, got through the dissertation.
Speaker A:I now have the PhD.
Speaker A:Everybody was happy.
Speaker A:It took longer than it should have.
Speaker A:Got to the point where I was told, I'll leave out names.
Speaker A:I was told a, if you don't finish by X time, you will not be employed.
Speaker A:I was told, if you want, I can take care of your children so that you have more time.
Speaker A:And this was coming from an upper administration level.
Speaker A:I can take care of your children so you have more time for your program.
Speaker A:But, you know.
Speaker A:And then I was told, you know, at this point, after here, we will no longer pay for your PhD.
Speaker A:You'll have to fund it yourself, but got it done.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:God was good.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:Never doing that again.
Speaker B:Yeah, but say not a second PhD.
Speaker B:Are you sure?
Speaker A:No postdocs, no nothing.
Speaker A:But it was, it was good.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker A:It was in leadership.
Speaker A:And I studied how institutions like Berman actually, I looked at all the adventist institutions and learning management systems.
Speaker A:So every now and then they would switch things.
Speaker A:Here at Berman, we were switching a lot of things.
Speaker A:We switched into cams, we switched into the Microsoft world, we switched into d two L.
Speaker A:And so when you make a change with technology, what are some of the factors that make people want to adopt it?
Speaker A:Because people like change, they just don't like to be changed.
Speaker A:And so factors like how easy it is to use and how useful it is and whether it's required and what kind of supports exist.
Speaker A:And so it was a, I found a useful, you know, dissertation dealing with change and technology and people and higher ed, all these, these circles that intersected where.
Speaker A:Where I was at the time.
Speaker B:And so you look deep into institutions, and so I'm not kind of shift the conversation a little bit.
Speaker B:So you've been through the ropes of, say, Crawford, you've came here to Berman, you've been in Trinidad.
Speaker B:In your doctoral study, you look at institution and their function in that level.
Speaker B:What is the impact of racism within your opinion, within, say, an institution like Berman University?
Speaker B:And have you personally experienced any of those?
Speaker A:That's quite a shift.
Speaker B:I know it's quite a shift, but I'm going somewhere with it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I think that, I mean, racism is real.
Speaker B:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker A:I think for me personally, I grew up in Guelph, Ontario, which was a majority white community, many italian families.
Speaker A:My church was a majority black, mostly jamaican immigrants.
Speaker A:And I learned how to work with people of all races and connect well without feeling separation.
Speaker A:I cannot say that I can identify an event here where I feel that racism is prejudice plus power.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So where somebody can differentiate you because of how you look or where you're from, and then they have the power to refuse you the ability to get to something that you want.
Speaker A:And I cannot say that I can identify a time where someone has prevented me from getting somewhere or has treated me badly, that I can say, this is racism.
Speaker A:I know sometimes there's a temptation within minority communities to say, anytime something happens that's bad, oh, that's racism.
Speaker A:But that's not my perspective.
Speaker A:If you were to ask me, is Burman a racist institution or, sorry, has Bermanda treated me negatively because of racism?
Speaker A:I would say no right now.
Speaker A:That's not to say that other students or other faculty, other administrators would not say a different.
Speaker A:I have a different answer because they have different experiences.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:But from my experience, I haven't seen that in this institution towards me.
Speaker B:And the reason why I ask you the question is because I'm connecting it to your PhD, because your PhD was in leadership, and you talk about how you looked at the institutions and their functioning.
Speaker B:So if anybody would have seen that, you probably could have seen it.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Well, my PhD was on and the thing about PhDs, the higher you go in education, the more narrow your focus.
Speaker A:So it was specifically on testing a particular model of how change happens in technology and checking to see is this model validated?
Speaker A:When I look at adventist institutions and how they look at learning management systems.
Speaker A:So this one over there is using canvas, this one's using this one using blackboard.
Speaker A:How do they rate them in terms of their usability and how in their institutions are they required to use it?
Speaker A:Or do they have options?
Speaker A:And then punching all the numbers and coming up with factors and comparing them and seeing what's statistically significant.
Speaker A:It's not about the institution.
Speaker A:Please study an institution and decide.
Speaker B:I misunderstood that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So my focus was on specifically learning management systems, change management system, and in a higher, higher education, adventist context, how does that all connect?
Speaker A:But I mean, we all study.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think it's a good thing to.
Speaker B: think you've been here since: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So being here for that long I've been in institution, you would have seen the institution hover like the whole, like a day, almost two decades of time, and you would have had a valid, whatever you say would carry weight in terms of stuff like racism, because you would have experienced it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the reason why I said that is because, and I'm leaving answer in a while, is because normally when we talk about racism is black versus white, it's not the other way around.
Speaker B:At least that's how I've heard the narrative is that.
Speaker B:And it's apparent.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that's the case.
Speaker B:Like, the black person can't be racist.
Speaker B:Like if the racism is happening, it's against the minority.
Speaker B:And that's how it is.
Speaker A:Again, depends on who's the minority.
Speaker A:And remember, what I identified it as is prejudice plus power.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:So if you have power, whether you are the.
Speaker A:Might not, say the visible minority, because there are places where the visible minority might not be black.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That might be white white.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And if the black party has power, then they can discriminate against the white party as much as the white party can discriminate, discriminate against the black party.
Speaker A:But yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, that makes sense because like, that's one of the things I've always said, that racism is both way.
Speaker B:And like anybody can be racist.
Speaker B:Like whether you're black or white, racism doesn't discriminate.
Speaker B:A black person can be racist as much as a white person can be racist.
Speaker B:But again, the power part, because I feel like there's, there they can also be people who don't have the power but can influence the power.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:Well, power.
Speaker A:Well, there's power and then there's influence.
Speaker A:Power.
Speaker B:Influence.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And influence.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:So it was quite a shift.
Speaker A:But why, why do you ask that question?
Speaker B:I guess the reason why I asked that was because I look at you as somebody who's elevated yourself through hard work, through the ranks.
Speaker B:And the perception is that that's hard to do for a black person because the fact that fundamentally the systems are set against us.
Speaker B:But I'm sitting before somebody who, I've not only had an undergrad, but I've gone up to the PhD.
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Speaker A:My role is not to boss them.
Speaker A:My role is to serve them.
Speaker A:And I serve them by coordinating things well so that the songs we sing connect well together and so that, and I prepare rehearsals and prepare myself and prepare the resources that we use so that it's easy for them to know what I want us to accomplish together.
Speaker A:And so leadership and, you know, to rise, I mean, so it seems like.
Speaker B:You look at leadership more has bottom up rather than top down.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:The pyramid is inverted.
Speaker A:Those who are at the bottom are the presidents and the vice presidents and the chairs whose role is to serve the faculty and the staff so that they can do the best possible job.
Speaker A:If you see leadership as rising to the top in the corporate, really, and some do, and some corporations are now starting to focus more on service and that philosophy rather than seeing it as I am.
Speaker A:This is my fiefdom and I rule the king because you know, it reminds me of, there was a book that I read, this present darkness by Frank Toretti, which is completely unrelated to business, but it's about seeing God's kingdom and Satan's kingdom and Satan's kingdom.
Speaker A:They all undermine each other.
Speaker A:They all are fighting each other for supremacy.
Speaker A:And that kind of system.
Speaker A:I mean, it reminds me of the United States, which kind of switches over to politics.
Speaker A:A bit of, they came out of rebellion.
Speaker A:They had a revolution to come out of the empire.
Speaker A:And ever since then, they have been having civil wars.
Speaker A:They have had division.
Speaker A:Any kingdom that's built on division has seeds of division in it.
Speaker A:And so anytime, and I think coming to our church, where we see ourselves as a remnant, coming out of there will always be movements of people trying to come out of the remnant and show how, you know, that that's Babylon.
Speaker A:Well, now that's Babylon, and we're pure.
Speaker A:So whatever the seeds are that of an organization that will always perpetuate itself in the DNA of the people there.
Speaker A:So if we and my team sees service that I am serving them, then they're serving the congregation.
Speaker A:Congregation serving God.
Speaker A:And so it's always this, this cycle of giving.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker B:That's important to me.
Speaker B:I think that's a good way, good correction for you to make, rather than saying just rising through the ranks, even though in a sense that's what's happening.
Speaker B:Like, let's say if you are a professor and you became the president, if you look at the outside world, they think you rose through the ranks and know you're on top.
Speaker B:And it's interesting because you're the first person I heard this idea from, actually from a secular company that I used to work for.
Speaker B:The president had this concept, right?
Speaker B:He literally drew this thing and he called it the one person.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And obviously it's original to them, so they trademark it.
Speaker B:But it's in the social service system where the purpose of the organization is to serve the one person.
Speaker B:And the one person is that youth that has the addiction, that you.
Speaker B:That has the trauma, that you.
Speaker B:That has a struggle, right?
Speaker B:And at the top of the support of the Iraqi is the youth.
Speaker B:And then as you go down, and it's kind of like the Iraqi flipped over.
Speaker B:As you said, as you go down, you have the CCW, which are the direct workers, the people who actually work with the youth.
Speaker B:And then you go down and you have, like, you know, the team, the supervisors and the coordinators and the managers and the CFO's and, you know, the operations and ultimately CEO.
Speaker B:And this is the first time I thought I heard it.
Speaker B:And when I asked him about.
Speaker B:About, you know, this concept, like.
Speaker B:Like, how do you come up with this concept?
Speaker B:His response was, we are here to serve, not to be served.
Speaker B:Like, we're not the ones that need the help.
Speaker B:And in order for my CFO to function, I have to serve him.
Speaker B:In order for the operations manager to function, the CFO has to serve, and so forth, so on, so that the one person, ultimately, who is the one that needs the most service can get the care and the frontline workers can help them.
Speaker B:So I think that's a good way, and I think that's what the kingdom of God is like, is that it's service to others.
Speaker B:And if we look at it that way, then, you know, we have no problems at all.
Speaker A:It's like, if my office does not do a good job putting together the schedule.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Then how are my advice?
Speaker A:How are the advisors gonna help people to choose their courses for next year?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:If I'm late with the exam schedule, how are students to book their flights home in a timely fashion and not have to pay, you know, exorbitant amounts?
Speaker A:It reminds me of a book that when I was teaching, I should type.
Speaker B:These books down that you talked about.
Speaker A:If you don't feed the teachers, they eat the students.
Speaker B:Whoa, I gotta write it down.
Speaker A:You can keep talking, but the idea there is that if you're the leader and you don't take care of the people who.
Speaker A:Who are serving your.
Speaker A:If you call them customers, then they will eat the customers.
Speaker A:They will take out their frustrations on the ones who they're existing to serve.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:And so that's true you're becoming a minister.
Speaker A:You know, if you don't feed your elders, if you don't feed your sheep, then they cannot minister to anyone else.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:That's an important part of leadership.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:We're gonna take a little turn again.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Where are we going now?
Speaker B:We're going to devotion.
Speaker B:Tell me a little bit about your relationship with God and how long you've been a Christian.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Well, the Bible says, before you were formed in the womb, I knew you.
Speaker A:So, you know, I always had this idea that we were closest to God inside the womb, and that ever since we come out, we've just been on a pathway.
Speaker A:Getting back.
Speaker B:I like that.
Speaker B:Getting back to the dust of the.
Speaker A:Earth kind of sense, getting back to that same closeness that we had with him in the womb.
Speaker A:But God is everything, and God is in, God is.
Speaker A:God is not in everything, but God is like, God is everything.
Speaker A:And I think, I mean, if.
Speaker A:When I'm going to come around to the question of devotion, but I just wanted to.
Speaker A:I was remembering how when I was in university, my secular university, we had these case study rooms.
Speaker A:We were in a cohort by third and fourth year and the 60 of us there.
Speaker A:And I was sitting across from a student and he said, you know, when it comes to business, I have a black heart.
Speaker A:Which was him saying essentially that for him, morals and ethics have nothing to do with business, with business.
Speaker A:And I think it was at that very moment where I decided I don't want to work in the corporate world with people like that, which was when I said to myself, I'm going to commit my life.
Speaker A:Because to me, devotion is not just about spending time reading the Bible and praying in the morning or having family worship at night, but it's about choosing a life of worship, or what you do is focus.
Speaker A:And the energy that you put in is focused on something that's more meaningful than just making money.
Speaker A:That's why the trajectory of my life has been through adventist institutions working and serving and using the talents that I have to bless others.
Speaker A:But in terms of devotional, I've been through different seasons of devotional experience.
Speaker A:For me, music is probably the biggest way that I connect with God.
Speaker A:And I have songs that make me tingle on the back of my neck.
Speaker A:One of them, if you want to write down things, song by Eric Champion, who's a, you know, young was a young music, but it's called endless.
Speaker A:That's God singing.
Speaker A:You know, I, you know, my love is endless.
Speaker A:I'll be with you through eternity everlasting, never failing.
Speaker A:Endless love.
Speaker A:You know that.
Speaker A:You know that.
Speaker A:Anyhow, listen to the song.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's what was the last time again?
Speaker B:Eric what?
Speaker A:Eric champion.
Speaker B:Eric Champion.
Speaker A:But there's music, and music for me, it's not just listening to it, it's singing and leading and worship.
Speaker A:It's writing songs, which I do from time to time, and just using all that God has given in music to give back to him praise.
Speaker A:I enjoyed listening to the Bible and listening to podcasts.
Speaker A:I'm sorry that I haven't listened to your podcast.
Speaker B:I'm offended.
Speaker A:I'll get to it.
Speaker B:Have you ever listened to the Bible is?
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Bible is.
Speaker B:I absolutely love the Bible is.
Speaker A:Yeah, that, that app, for some reason would keep on crashing on my, my Android phone.
Speaker A:So I got rid of it and now I use logos Bible software, which is.
Speaker A:I know the logos ecosystem of software, and.
Speaker A:But it also has audio bibles on.
Speaker B:It, kind of like the accordance.
Speaker B:Do you know the accordance one too?
Speaker A:I do not.
Speaker B:Yeah, so there's one that we use at the department.
Speaker B:Well, we use both, but we also use accordance.
Speaker B:It's kind of like logos.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:But it's, yeah, it's kind of more focused, like more powerful, like, in my opinion.
Speaker B:But also.
Speaker B:So, so the logos of a logos.
Speaker A:They have, you can download bibles that are audio bibles.
Speaker A:So I listen to the ESV Bible, and I think I have the faith life study Bible as well, but that one only has New Testament, and I like my old and my New Testament.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I've been listening recently through, I listen through the psalms a lot.
Speaker A:The Sabbath school lesson was recently on the Psalms.
Speaker A:And of course, study the Sabbath school lesson too.
Speaker A:But listening to the Bible and with my family, we every night will sing and we'll read the Bible.
Speaker A:And right now we're reading with them through Moses because we're a Pathfinder family.
Speaker A:I'm chaplain for the Red Deer Hawks, and my kids are both pathfinders and red deer hawks.
Speaker A:Red deer hawks, yeah.
Speaker B:What's that?
Speaker A:That's the name of the club.
Speaker A:So Red Deer is the red deer 7th day advanced Church has a club called the Hawksh.
Speaker A:Every club has names.
Speaker B:Okay, the Hawks.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, the Hawks.
Speaker A:And my wife is deputy director.
Speaker A:And so we're all working hard to get to the Gillette Pathfinder camperee.
Speaker A:And those of you watching, if you want to give, go to the Red Deer 7th day advanced church Adventist giving website, and give to camperee Pathfinder.
Speaker A:Help us get there about 75% of the way to a bus.
Speaker A:After that, we gotta pay like $10,000 for food, but by the grace of.
Speaker B:God, put a link into the description.
Speaker A:So that I'll put the link there.
Speaker A:Yeah, help us get there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, but we'll, right now we're reading through Moses, the book of Exodus, because, you know, that's what it, that's what the theme is.
Speaker B:Very interesting, because that's actually the book I'm in.
Speaker A:Ah, yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so we're, now, it's interesting how the people of God, they just complain for nothing, you know, that's the same.
Speaker B:Thing I was saying this morning in the shower.
Speaker B:Like, I'm at the part where they, well, first it was the manor, and they were like, oh, you brought us out of Egypt.
Speaker B:Because I'm listening to the Bible is.
Speaker A:Were there not enough graves in Egypt.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And then, you know, we need the water.
Speaker A:What's wrong?
Speaker A:The water.
Speaker A:And then all the people are gonna hurt us.
Speaker A:And then it's like, we forgot what God did then, and we're gonna complain now, but we're no different.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:My car goes down.
Speaker A:It's like, oh, my car.
Speaker A:How'd this happen?
Speaker A:I get sick.
Speaker A:Oh, how come I'm sick?
Speaker B:You know, it's like, you know, but constant complaining.
Speaker A:And then we're also reading through a chapter of patriarchs and prophets, which is a book by Ellen White, which is talking about the whole history of life.
Speaker A:And so right now, we just finished through the Tower of Babel, and we're going through Abraham.
Speaker A:And so that's a.
Speaker A:That's it's.
Speaker A:And it's cool to be able to help, to explain to my family, my kids, especially, what's happening and what the lessons are there that apply to us, because Alan Light's really good at that.
Speaker A:It'll be like, here's the story.
Speaker A:And then, boomf.
Speaker B:This is the lesson.
Speaker A:This is what's happening and how the same way it is right now.
Speaker A:And as we get closer to the end of time, it's more and more clear that the world is becoming like it was in the days of Noah as it was in the days of Jonah.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:And my family.
Speaker A:And you don't have this, but we moved out to an acreage just last May.
Speaker B:I think I know that.
Speaker A:Well, you may know that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's not probably anyhow.
Speaker B:No, it's not.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:New job on May 1, new home on May 17.
Speaker A:And so we've been out there where we can grow our own food and.
Speaker B:Say, but I won't say where it is because we're on camera.
Speaker A:But you know what word is?
Speaker B:I know where it is, but I won't say it.
Speaker A:Oh, do you?
Speaker B:Anyhow, I mean, like, I don't want anyone to come harass you in here.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker B:But what I will say is that.
Speaker B:Tell me more about.
Speaker B:Cause I have a fascination with the country.
Speaker B:Cause I grew up in Jamaica, right?
Speaker B:So I grew up in the country.
Speaker B:My dad is a farmer.
Speaker B:My mom is a housewife.
Speaker B:So I see my dad farming, like, most of the food that we eat as it relates to grown provision and stuff like that, my father grows it.
Speaker B:So one of the biggest things that I've been missing being here in Canada is that kind of an experience.
Speaker B:So what's that been like for you?
Speaker B:Like out there on the acreage inside the lake too.
Speaker B:You're close there.
Speaker A:Best thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is the best.
Speaker A:We have our own well, so we have our own water.
Speaker A:Really, we have.
Speaker B:You gotta invite me out.
Speaker A:Well, I will.
Speaker A:I will.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:I mean, it was a miracle to get this because this was.
Speaker A:This was the time where everybody was trying to move out to the country just as Covid was.
Speaker A:You know, everybody decided they didn't want to live next to people.
Speaker A:And we found a place.
Speaker A:My wife, like, all of credit to her, she found a place with greenhouses, with irrigated gardens, well fertilized.
Speaker A:And the only unfortunate thing was the people we bought from, they said they would plant for us before they left.
Speaker A:And we're like, yes, they're gonna plant.
Speaker A:And like, time comes and they're like, oh, sorry.
Speaker A:The, you know, the ground isn't quite ready and so we couldn't plant, so we had to plant late.
Speaker A:And we got, you know, a lot of things.
Speaker A:Carrots.
Speaker A:And we got lots of green kale and stuff.
Speaker A:So my wife has been buying lots of seeds over the winter.
Speaker A:And so we have a few things already pre planted inside.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker A:We got the two greenhouses.
Speaker A:Last year we only planted one.
Speaker A:Lots of big zucchini and stuff.
Speaker A:And we gave stuff away.
Speaker A:But it's really nice.
Speaker B:Shout out to Misses Jeffrey.
Speaker A:Shout out to Misses Jeffrey.
Speaker A:Yesterday we had a transfer switch put on.
Speaker A:Now we gotta, you know, the government's good.
Speaker A:Well, no, we won't say that they're good.
Speaker A:It is nice when the government gives you back all the money that they took from you in taxes that you get back.
Speaker A:If you.
Speaker A:If you're faithful and give a tithe and offering, you get thousands of dollars back.
Speaker A:So we put some of it into getting a system.
Speaker A:So now if the power goes out, we can still get water from the well.
Speaker A:Because without.
Speaker A:Without a generator and without it being connected to your house, if the power goes out, you can't flush your toilet, you can't drink, you can't do anything.
Speaker A:And so now we can, you know.
Speaker B:Old the well is.
Speaker B:I normally am intrigued by those.
Speaker A:I have the well report.
Speaker A:When we're done, we're off camera.
Speaker A:I will pull up the well report information.
Speaker A:But it's deep and it's pure.
Speaker A:And actually, it's one of the two sites in the county where they test it electronically to make sure everything is fine.
Speaker B:So did the COVID drama.
Speaker B:Was that what propelled you to move out to the country?
Speaker A:I don't think so.
Speaker A:I think my.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I think some of the messages that are preached hit home with some members of my family strongly and encouraged them to move to the country.
Speaker A:And I supported that.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Cause I.
Speaker B:Cause, I mean, like, a lot of people were fearful during COVID you know, I mean, you talk about some of the stuff that you had to do in terms of recording and stuff, and a lot of people do that.
Speaker B:I mean, I did school online, too, for the first little partner.
Speaker B:But beside all of that, a lot of people were fearful of even the people that live closer.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, that was a really scary time because some people who, you know, like, you know, because it was like people were pit against each other, right?
Speaker B:There was the anti vaxx, and then there was the vax, there was the anti mass, and then there was the mask.
Speaker B:And it got so crazy that people would start to look at each other when they're in public.
Speaker B:If you're not wearing a mask, someone is, like, almost someone is watching you.
Speaker B:And I've seen videos where, because someone wasn't wearing a mask, then that person would be kicked out of the store.
Speaker B:Because someone in the store went and reported that that person was Irena Mars, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:So he got scared.
Speaker B:So, I mean, like, if I had the resource at that time, I probably moved to the country, too, because I was even beside people who are the same, kind of like, because I don't know if I was pro anything, I was just like, let's do what is right in my thing, because I actually got the vaccine, but still, I wouldn't.
Speaker B:I wasn't for the people who were think forcing it on other people.
Speaker B:Like, at the end of the day, I think you should allow people to make their choices, but the way they make the people who were not taking the vaccine look was that these people were evil.
Speaker B:I'm like, are we getting ready for another genocide?
Speaker B:What's gonna happen here in Canada?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it was a scary time.
Speaker A:The most unfortunate thing was what happened in churches where people are supposed to love one another, to love their enemies.
Speaker A:And even if you think that the people who believe differently than you on a topic like this are your enemies, then you're supposed to love them and not treat them badly.
Speaker A:And that's not what we saw.
Speaker A:And I think, absolutely not.
Speaker A:That was a big lesson.
Speaker A:I hope that we have learned as society, as a church community, that we did not manage this well.
Speaker B:We did not.
Speaker A:And so the next time something comes up that, well, and there's always something coming up that can divide us, whether it's.
Speaker A:Whether it's women's ordination, whether it's gender issues, whether it's racial issues, how we treat those that we differ with, even trinity.
Speaker A:If it's something that we differ with somebody and the way that we treat them, that reveals, really what God means to us.
Speaker A:And if you are doing dress reform and food reform and living a strict life, but that religion is causing you to treat people with contempt and disrespect, then maybe there's something missing in what you believe.
Speaker A:And I think that's something that, you know, that you know, they will know.
Speaker A:You are my disciples by your love.
Speaker B:I was gonna come straight to that point.
Speaker B:So, you know, yesterday, Arden, and I was talking about this, like, what is the thing that the world looks at to know that we're followers of Christ, right?
Speaker B:It's not the fact that we keep the Sabbath.
Speaker B:It's not the fact that we preach the good sermons.
Speaker B:It's how we treat each other.
Speaker B:By this, all men will know you're my disciple when you have love one for another.
Speaker B:So it was really surprising to see the division, even amongst our church because of COVID right?
Speaker B:You know, people left the church.
Speaker B:You know, people.
Speaker B:You know, like, there was total division in the place that we should have shown the most unity.
Speaker B:Let the world be divided, but let us show unity in Christ and love for each other, regardless of what the other person may think.
Speaker A:Going back to devotional, one of the things that recently has been an emphasis of mine is that the word hesed, which, being a theology person, you probably know it.
Speaker A:It's the hebrew word that is translated, loving kindness or mercy, goodness and chesed, will follow me all the days of my life.
Speaker A:And just under.
Speaker A:Just digging into that word and understanding how it reflects God's character.
Speaker A:The love that gives you everything when you deserve nothing, the love that, when you're the son coming back from wasting the father's inheritance, will give the robe and the ring.
Speaker A:That part of my.
Speaker A:My devotional theme is understanding who God is, because his character is essentially what's the most important thing at stake, that people who run from God run from him because they don't understand who he is.
Speaker A:And so while it's important to know the prophecies and to know where we are in the stream of time and all of that, if you don't have that center of who God is and how his love is for us and how it's to flow through us, then what really do we have to offer, except some empty doctrines that correctly understood, point to Jesus, but without him can be a trap for people.
Speaker A:And so that's something that whole hesed concept has really been moving me lately.
Speaker B:I like that concept.
Speaker B:You know, we actually been learning that concept in theology.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker B:I've been a classical theology, and we're looking at doctrine focused gospel versus Christ love centered focused gospel.
Speaker B:And what referred to two approaches is that the doctrine focused gospel says that you got to keep the Sabbath first.
Speaker B:You gotta get the trespass form right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B: tta get your understanding of: Speaker B:And all those things first, and then, oh, here's Jesus.
Speaker B:Like, Jesus the cross at the back.
Speaker B:And what we understand is that the cross is the front, is that Jesus loves you and died for your sin.
Speaker B:God loved the world in this way, for God so loved the world that he gave the holy beginning.
Speaker B:This is how he loved the world, that he gave Jesus to die for your sins.
Speaker B:And when the person can meet Jesus where they are, they can surrender.
Speaker B:All this stuff can come after, you know?
Speaker B:So it's interesting that you brought this concept, because I think when it comes to evangelism, that should be our focus.
Speaker B:Jesus and him crucified.
Speaker B:And if we're doing Jesus and him crucified, then what that's gonna make us do is love people, treat people right.
Speaker B:That's the gospel.
Speaker B:That's the kingdom of goddess.
Speaker B:How are you treating Doctor Jeffrey right?
Speaker B:How is Doctor Jeffrey treating you?
Speaker B:How are we treating each other?
Speaker B:And we can't fool the world because they can look and know that these people are being hypocrites.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, and it's obvious.
Speaker A:And, you know, and you can grow up in a christian home, and based on what you see, you make a decision about, is this the kind of life I want?
Speaker A:Is this the kind of religion that I want where, you know, we go to church and everybody's all dressed up nice and behaving nice, and you come home.
Speaker B:The hypocrisy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I.
Speaker A:I don't know if you were at the Pablo Goya Sermon, but he was talking about how it's a Pablo.
Speaker B:Yes, I was.
Speaker A:One story he told where, you know, he was.
Speaker A:His motorcycle, he forgot something, and he had to go back to a house where the people are all so nice and.
Speaker A:And it was like fighting, like, like in there, and the woman comes flying out the door, and it's like, oh, pastor, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, I.
Speaker A:Revolution.
Speaker A:That's not what.
Speaker A:That's not what God wants from us.
Speaker A:And it's not gonna win anybody to him if our lives don't reflect the power of the gospel to change us.
Speaker A:Because if it can't change us, it's not gonna change anybody else.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, you can't give what you don't have.
Speaker B:I speak of what you don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we're coming on to a close.
Speaker B:We have a few more question.
Speaker B:Is there anything that's happening in the world now?
Speaker B:It can be anything that you're comfortable talk about that concerns you?
Speaker A:Is there anything.
Speaker A:I mean, there's so many, but there are so many things.
Speaker B:What concerns you, like something that really, it could be gender abortion or whatever.
Speaker A:It is that concerns the thing that concerns me the most.
Speaker A:And the Bible says, as one of the signs of the end, that the love of many shall wax cold.
Speaker A:And that surrounds like, I'm listening to the news.
Speaker A:I listen to the news a lot.
Speaker A:Like Finland.
Speaker A:Twelve year old kid shoots three other twelve year olds at school, kills one, two wounded.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:You know why?
Speaker A:You know what's why?
Speaker A:And the fact that there are no controls on people except the self control they choose to exhibit themselves.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So at any time, anybody could do anything.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:You know, I was.
Speaker A:I was just looking at, you know, the lessons that my driving instructor, Dennis, taught me when I was 17 years old, learning to drive.
Speaker A:And one of the things he said was, drive like everybody else on the road is crazy.
Speaker A:And you won't be too far off sometimes that if everybody on the planet, I mean, anyone could kill anyone else.
Speaker A:Anyone could just.
Speaker A:And it's only the grace of God and the self control that they choose to exhibit at any moment.
Speaker A:And that self control is being less and less practiced these days.
Speaker A:Right now we have people protesting the carbon tax and, you know, a bunch of tractors caused a multi vehicle accident.
Speaker A:We have, you know, I mean, I could go on.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's, you know, and then the other thing that concerns me is, I don't know if I.
Speaker A:We'll call it conspiracy.
Speaker A:The idea you have a boat that goes into a bridge.
Speaker A:And I saw that immediately.
Speaker A:People will say it was taken over by a cyber attack.
Speaker A:It was deliberate.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was.
Speaker A:You know, and we no longer.
Speaker A:You cannot reason and say that might not be the case.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:It might have happened, but it might not.
Speaker A:Because people now and again, part of the polarity that's happened from COVID is that people, once they believe something, they don't want to believe anything else.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:The mainstream media is lying, the government is lying.
Speaker A:The only one telling the truth is me, and that that's concerning me the whole way that trust has been completely eroded.
Speaker A:So you have people who don't trust anything, people who now are not controlling themselves and how quickly our world can spiral into chaos.
Speaker B:That is so interesting.
Speaker B:You know, I probably would hear, I was probably hispanic to say abortion, or are probably expecting you to say, you know, the protests, the carbon tax, or, you know, war in Israel, something like that.
Speaker B:But you know, what's so funny about what you just said is that it is fundamental to everything that's happening.
Speaker B:Yes, it is fundamental is that trust in our establishments, in our systems, and all those times and all those things are broken down.
Speaker A:The only thing you can trust is God.
Speaker A:I mean, I was gonna, we moved out to the country like anything could happen to us.
Speaker A:Somebody could decide, we're gonna come and take over your house and take all your stuff.
Speaker A:And, you know, my kids were watching in the United States, and I don't know how true this is.
Speaker A:Probably true.
Speaker A:An image checker for yourselves who goes into a house telling people, come into the country they're weak, you can take over everything.
Speaker A:You can take over their house.
Speaker A:I'm like, what?
Speaker A:Is this a true, or is this being used to create a race war in the United States and hatred for the immigrants?
Speaker A:But it's like, this is what's on tv and people are watching it and anybody can put any message out there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, what I say about all this is that it probably needs to happen.
Speaker B:You know why?
Speaker B:Because people need to trust God.
Speaker B:I think now more than ever, right now in this moment, we have this beautiful opportunity to give people hope and someone who you can trust, and that's God.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker B:I think the gospel matters right now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:More than it ever has been.
Speaker B:It's almost like Babylon has fallen and the kings of the earth are mourning, oh, Babylon the great.
Speaker B:You know, that text in revelation?
Speaker B:They're mourning because Babylon has fallen.
Speaker B:And what we need to, what needs to happen, though, is as christians, we need to give people hope.
Speaker B:So, yes, you can.
Speaker B:It's probably true because there's evidence that the government lied to us.
Speaker B:So many evidence.
Speaker B:And that people that we trust, like the media and those places, have lied to us.
Speaker B:There's ton of evidence for that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But what people need to hear now that, yes, it is true, but here's an alternative.
Speaker A:And I think you can trust God.
Speaker A:And I'm not sure how close we are to the end, but I think Satan's, one of his strategies is to say to people and to show people you cannot trust any authority.
Speaker A:Therefore you can't trust God, the greatest authority.
Speaker B:And we're here to say that's a lie, right from evidence that both our lives is that you can trust God because he will not fail you.
Speaker B:Your government will fail you.
Speaker B:Anything that you put your trust in here is temporal.
Speaker B:You know, the text says the harms of the arms of flesh will fail you.
Speaker B:You dare not trust your own right but you can trust God.
Speaker A:So back to the words of Wintley Phipps, he will never fail you.
Speaker A:And in the morning you'll see his face.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker B:This show is called amidst the odds.
Speaker B:And amidst the odds is the cross ultimately.
Speaker B:And the idea is that amidst what we just talked about amidst suffering, amidst war, amidst, you know, the fact that we can't trust, you know, the people that we're supposed to trust, establishment and stuff like that we can trust God but amidst he has the cross.
Speaker B:But we all have a story of triumph.
Speaker B:We all have a story that we can tell that amidst the odds we overcame.
Speaker B:We overcome.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:If you could tell, if you should tell what would be your amidst the odds story?
Speaker A:The fact that I am here and alive.
Speaker A:I mean I didn't tell you this part of my story but before we moved to the country my father died from cancer.
Speaker A:My brother, a year and a half older, died from cancer.
Speaker A:My mother died from cancer.
Speaker B:All in one year.
Speaker A:All in about two years.
Speaker A:All during COVID Not from COVID but during COVID All two of them had the 30 person, 50 person funeral.
Speaker A:But the fact that I am still here without cancer as far as I know but able to live for God and to serve people.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's my amidst the odd story.
Speaker B:I like that.
Speaker B:Praise God.
Speaker B:Doctor Jeffrey, thank you so much for talking to me today.
Speaker B:Look forward to talk to you again.
Speaker B:God blessed.
